I am sitting in the offices of Sanctuary Records in mid-town Manhattan.
At the time of this writing, the new Ministry record, Houses Of The Mole is due to come out next week; and I am slated to interview frontman Al Jourgensen. We could sit and talk about whatever we wanted… but with Al Jourgensen, if you’re planning on discussing the weather, you’d better believe the conversation will be heavier than, “Nice day, isn’t it”
Though this interview will likely not surface until the band sets about touring at the end of the summer, the subject at hand will not be very distant. There is a new record out,
and it may be the greatest Ministry record yet -- if not the best in some time. There is a fire raging within Al Jourgensen… and it is not likely to diminish anytime soon.
KNAC.COM: First of all… I really dig the new record. Think it’s great.
AL JOURGENSEN : Thanks, man, I’m proud of it. I think it’s a kick-ass album.
KNAC.COM: As a low-rent rock-critic, I would say that you’ve picked up where Psalm 69 left off.
JOURGENSEN: Yeah! “Psalm 70!” Yeah…
KNAC.COM: It’s also one of the few times I can think of where I don’t have to ask the artist to interpret his lyrics…
JOURGENSEN: [Laughs] Yeah, it’s pretty self-explanatory!
KNAC.COM: So, we just watched the video for “No W” -- awesome, fun song and imagery. But dude, I have to state the obvious, and let’s start here: you fucking HATE George Bush!
JOURGENSEN: No, well-- I hate his policies, I hate his administration, I hate the special interests: those people and those groups that have been running things since the Reagan years. It’s the same almost industrialist cabal as in the 19th Century that Teddy Roosevelt had to fight. These people are corrupt, they’re greedy, they’re really disgusting, and I’m definitely not on the Bush’s Christmas card list!
KNAC.COM: This week is a big week: your record is coming out, and Michael Moore is
releasing…
JOURGENSEN: Fahrenheit 9/11 is coming out…yeah! It’s great-- I haven’t seen it yet. I’m going to see it in LA on Friday, because I’ll be out there. It’s really interesting, because on the right-wing chat-rooms and on some of the websites, I’m the NUMBER TWO VILLIAN behind Michael Moore…
KNAC.COM: Really?
JOURGENSEN: Yeah! They hate me! It’s awesome!
KNAC.COM: That is terrific! Clearly you have some incendiary…
JOURGENSEN: Well, I have a forum and I have a right to say what I feel. And what I feel is that this administration is the most greedy and corrupt and inept that I’ve ever seen in my 45 years of life. So, I have a right -- it’s still somewhat of a Patriot Act Free Country, so…
KNAC.COM: I’ve never really tackled politics with a musician before… and I’m not sure if I should be more challenging or just be accommodating… but, as with anyone else, I’m interested in what you have to say. Specifically, about George Bush’s policies and the war -- did you feel it was right for us to go into Iraq under any circumstances?
JOURGENSEN: It’s not just a war; the war’s just a front -- that’s a diversionary tactic -- while sacrificing human life, just to be able to have Haliburton and Bechtel reconstruct the country and make a shitload of money. It’s a giant cash-grab: it has nothing to do with geo-politics or any kind of moral issue -- it’s a straight cash-grab. And when people find that out, as [Fahrenheit] 9/11 will show I think -- and as with anyone who does the research on it -- it’s about a cash-grab and sacrificing human life to do it. And that’s unacceptable!
KNAC.COM: You’re angry.
JOURGENSEN: It makes me angry. It should make you angry. It should make everyone angry.
KNAC.COM: You mentioned the special interests -- those lobbies… oil, who else? The Conservative Christians?
JOURGENSEN: Whoa—well, the Conservative Christians…
KNAC.COM: The faith-based lobby… there was an article recently, in The Village Voice, about the strength and power of this group, this lobby. At the heart of it is, apparently, a push to bring about a kind of peace in Israel, in order to bring about the rapture or the second-coming of Christ, or so they believe… and there’s the double-edged sword of war for oil mixed with… some greater religious ideologies… a lot of concern that the government isn’t as secular as it should be… maybe this is too rough a subject to tackle for a rock-site… I just thought I’d throw it out there.
JOURGENSEN: No! It’s not a rough subject to tackle. Not at all. That is also oppression, of The Palestinian State. Okay? I am not a Zionist; I really feel that the Israeli administration is as corrupt -- and they’re starting to find that out, again, with [Ariel] Sharon’s land-deals and everything else as with our own administration. It’s-- this is about corrupt governments. They’re in bed with each other, and no wonder there’s so much Arab hatred and anti-American sentiment because of the oppressive policies of these fucking cash-grabbers. [Pauses] And, well, yeah -- it’s so funny too, because, like, one the one hand, we ridicule the Bible as a fiction/bed-time story, and on the other hand, we re-enact policies concerning that Bible. And yet this separation of Church and State -- it’s such hypocrisy. It’s not about that, it’s a smoke-screen. It’s all about a land and cash grab -- simple as that. All this, you know, allusions toward The Bible, you know, and The Old Testament and things, it’s just a smoke-screen. It’s strictly, pure dollars and sense: sacrifice human lives, blood for profit.
KNAC.COM: A little… wag the dog would you say?
JOURGENSEN: Mm-hmm. Exactly.
KNAC.COM: You were in The Nation recently. You mentioned that, if the Kerry campaign contacted you, you’d be willing to do something for them.
JOURGENSEN: Yeah, they just contacted us for Boston… for the DNC.
KNAC.COM: They contacted you… to speak?
JOURGENSEN: No, to play.
KNAC.COM: Ministry at the DNC in Boston?
JOURGENSEN: Yeah… there’s a Clinton fundraiser that might be interested. I don’t know. I don’t want to jinx it. Anything I can do to get Bush out of office, I’m happy to do. Anything.
KNAC.COM: Do you feel that you’re more pro-Kerry or more anti-Bush?
JOURGENSEN: You know, Kerry and Bush are just the pimple on the skin. They’re just the external syndrome of the whole thing. Am I pro-special interest, or anti-special interest? The way I look at it is: the energy industry, i.e. oil and these people, oil, pharmaceuticals… those are the people that have been running things since the Reagan administration. And I think that, at least with Kerry, we have a different special interest group running things. And maybe, just maybe -- they’re such rookies -- that they’re not used to being in power and maybe they get rid of the oil industry… put some new people in, and they might just do what the people want because they don’t know how to behave any differently. The oil industry, and the energy industry, and that special interest is so entrenched in greed and corruption -- I don’t care what replaces them -- it may even be worse! BUT, anything! Because we know where this is going… at least there’s a chance, at least there’s a chance that something will come of some new blood. A regime change.
KNAC.COM: That’s very McCain of you. What did you or what do you think of John McCain? A lot of people from both sides liked him the last time around, but he didn’t get the Republican nomination, and he chose not to run independently. Some people saw him as the best of both worlds… and a no-bullshit kind of guy…
JOURGENSEN: I think he’s-- you know I don’t agree with all of his policies, but I really do think that in the public image he’s really viewed as this straight-shooter. And I think living seven years in a Vietnamese torture-camp will make a person a straight-shooter. I really don’t think that he’s playing the game as all these other politicians do, because of his reference points. I respect him, yeah. If he had actually gotten the nomination from his party… the world would be a much different place, yeah. I think so, I really do.
KNAC.COM: And… if Al Gore had taken office after the popular vote over the electoral college?
JOURGENSEN: I think it would be a much different world, yeah. Look, strictly on environmental terms, a much different world. What we have going now, with George Bush’s complete arrogance and disregard for anything environmental, is just catastrophic. It really is. That affects all of us. Okay? Forget the economic policies and the war and everything -- strictly environmentally speaking: we’re all fucked, man. We’re all fucked anyways, because there’s certain cycles that happen within the aging of the globe, if you will. That’s where the phoenix rising comes out of. Catastrophes happen: populations rise out of that. They die out, they rise up. So I think we’re headed toward that on a global scale, anyway. But Bush is certainly advancing the cause. To me -- he is Damien Thorne!
He is The Omen! He is The Son of Satan! He really is. Do you remember that movie?
Famine is big business… in The Omen and the sequels? That’s what Bush does! Bush and Cheney and Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld -- they have this global cash-grab for their cronies at the expense of all other people. Environmentally speaking -- and there’s so many other aspects to it -- but just environmentally speaking, the weather affects every fucking person on the planet, and they’re fucking it up. They’re dropping the ball on this one… to say the least.
KNAC.COM: This is… there is a lot of talk about media-bias. Fox News or the liberal-controlled media. How is Al Jourgensen informed? What do you follow, or seek out, to stay informed, in a country so divided on politics? What would you recommend?
JOURGENSEN: I think the first thing you have to do is start reading. And the first book I would suggest is Eric Alterman’s ‘The Book On Bush: How Bush (Mis)Leads America.’ So obviously, they’re wearing their partisanship on their sleeves, but it’s a factual book. ‘Plan Of Attack’… the Richard Clarke and the Bob Woodward books are good. The Michael Moore books are, of course, good. ‘The Book on Bush’ is straight… it may be a partisan book, but the facts are not partisan.
KNAC.COM: What about the book ‘House of Saud’? Have you read that?
JOURGENSEN: ’House of Saud’/’House of Bush’ is good -- a lot of that is covered in more layman’s terms in Michael Moore’s books…
KNAC.COM: Do you watch television? Do you read newspapers? Go online?
JOURGENSEN: All of the above, yeah. I’m part of punkvoter.com too.
KNAC.COM: When you read, newspapers, wherever you may be… LA, El Paso…?
JOURGENSEN: El Paso, yeah.
KNAC.COM: Do you find that you’re searching for anything particularly? The way news is reported? IS there a bias in the media?
JOURGENSEN: I like to read between the lines: especially of what I do have available to me here.
It’s really great when I go to Europe, to be able to read The Independent, The Guardian, The Observer and all these other papers… Le Monde -- I read French as well -- so yeah. It’s really eye-opening to see the different perspectives. On TV… I really—well, FOX is out! And I find CNN really tedious, because it’s not really anything about the truth, it’s about giving three minutes to the right, three minutes to the left… you don’t want to piss anybody off. So where do the facts come in? Three minutes of spin one-way, three minutes of spin the other way. And they give them both equal time, but there’s no actual factual process involved. So you really gotta read between the lines and become a little bit more astute as you watch this stuff. In general, I get my information from the BBC, in general; and I read between the lines on American papers and television. I really like European dailies, when I can get ‘em. Sometimes online.
KNAC.COM: Did you see the story about… the South Korean prisoner who was beheaded. Al-Jazeera reported it, and news services picked it up and carried it. What do you think about the Coalition of the Willing? Are other countries just as guilty as ours in your opinion?
JOURGENSEN: The Coalition of the Killing? Well… I think it’s the Coalition of The Coerced, number one. It’s all through trade-policies and promises made through big corporations on developments in those countries and profiteering is what keeps the coalition together.
I don’t think there’s any moral fiber that holds them together. I think this is all a front, of course. I don’t think there’s a coalition: I think it’s a bunch of multi-national corporations making secret side-deals that keeps soldiers in the line of fire and dying for someone else’s profits, that’s what I think.
KNAC.COM: There was a Circle Jerks song, from many years ago… “Permanent Vacation” -- It’s not Vietnam, it’s just another oil company scam!…
JOURGENSEN: Yup! Exactly.
KNAC.COM: If America embraced a more environmentally sound approach to living, that General Motors, say with hybrid cars, would become less dependent on foreign oil, or is it deeper than that?
JOURGENSEN: Well, look, Bush-- he asked for $87 billion… we spent over $200 billion on Iraq. And if you took a quarter of that money, and put it into setting up an infrastructure on alternative fuels… HELLO!? Just take a QUARTER of the money! Then take another quarter of that and throw it into the education of the people… take another quarter of that and throw it into the homeless and unemployed. I mean, this is just wasted money for the profiteering of a few corporations…Bechtel, Haliburton, Enron, Exxon… I mean, c’mon!
This is such a blatant cash-grab! And I think our reliance on fossil fuels, especially since we have all these alternatives now, it’s just a matter of setting up the infrastructure. And the whole infrastructure thing is that it also sets up an economic boom. They’re saying, “No! That’ll put us in unemployment if we take away the oil and take that route…”
NO! NO! New jobs developed through new technologies. That was proven definitely during the Clinton years, and can be proven again. But he’s so in bed with the oil industry and the energy conglomerate that it’s just not going to happen until he’s gone.
KNAC.COM: But there’s no education. It’s become something for the privileged, or so it seems. Do you think that the reason Republicans seem to be always slashing education is because it keeps people down? Ultimately?
JOURGENSEN: Of course. The entire Republican message is to control the message. That’s it. Period. One thought: Orwellian. One singular mind. Make money for us. We’ll give you trinkets -- you give us all your time, all your energy, all your thought, all your money… and you get all this nice technology in your home to make your life better. Like a widescreen television! Won’t that be nice? Obey…
KNAC.COM: Given your outspoken nature… would you ever consider running for office?
JOURGENSEN: No. I have the wrong haircut and the wrong tattoos for that shit.
KNAC.COM: [Laughs] The wrong tattoos…
JOURGENSEN: Yeah, sure. Like, George Schultz, of the Reagan administration, The Secretary of State, had a Princeton Tiger tattooed on his ass. Well, I got a 666 over here… I got a (rolling up sleeves, pointing) I mean… you know? [Laughs] I got the wrong tattoos for that kinda shit. No one’s gonna work with that!
KNAC.COM: Fair enough. Although it just dawned on me that maybe you can’t run anyway… weren’t you born outside the United States?
JOURGENSEN: I was born in Cuba, yeah.
KNAC.COM: Thus making you ineligible…
JOURGENSEN: I’m an American citizen, but, yes, ineligible to run right now.
KNAC.COM: Unless they change the law.
JOURGENSEN: Oh, they’ll change the law. Good old Arnie’s out there. You watch.
KNAC.COM: You think that’ll happen?
JOURGENSEN: Oh, yeah, yeah. Sure. They’ll do a twenty-year limit and that’ll pass. He’s the great white hope of the Republicans. That’ll happen. It’s pretty scary… but you know, once again, different pimple. It’ll be the same interest groups backing him. They have found a charismatic guy that they can continue their agenda with… this figurehead. I’m sure, I’m sure of it. Schwarzenegger will be President. I’m certain of it. It’s kind of debilitating for me, in a hope sense… but I can see it happening.
KNAC.COM: Let’s talk about Cuba for a moment. Given the United States’ seemingly archaic policy of exclusion…
JOURGENSEN: Totally.
KNAC.COM: What can you share about your experiences, beliefs about Cuba?
JOURGENSEN: I think Castro did what he had to do for the people at the time because the Batista government, at the time, was not a government -- it was a puppet government. It was run by American oil companies, and the Mafia. It was like a little playland for multinationalists, is what it was.
KNAC.COM: You mean, like in that scene in Godfather II?
JOURGENSEN: Yeah, yeah! Exactly. It really was like that. But Castro did what he had to do. He made some mistakes, and he’s made some progress. However, he’s archaic now. He’s as archaic as our policy towards Cuba. Unfortunately, it’s this global-market economy and anyone who is isolated from that is going to suffer through whatever policy or agenda they have. It’s a very sad situation. I mean, I see it changing, and it will change -- especially if Kerry gets in office. It’ll be open borders, and I’ll be back -- it’s a beautiful country…
KNAC.COM: Have you been back since…
JOURGENSEN: No. I’m not allowed. There’s no way. No way. Especially-- my grandfather was in the Batista government, so I’m an especially marked man. In Cuba, because of my heritage, and because of my political leanings… [Laughs] I’m fucked all the way around!
KNAC.COM: Do you have, in your heart, some longing to eventually…
JOURGENSEN: Oh, of course, yeah! One day.
KNAC.COM: Well… I guess we should talk about your music a little bit. On the new record, Houses Of The Mole… the songs are hardcore -- heavy and catchy. A nice blend of guitar and industrial sounds and samples. You’ve long been recognized as one of the originators of this style… I was at a show last night by the band Skinny Puppy who were--
JOURGENSEN: Oh, did you see me?
KNAC.COM: You were there?
JOURGENSEN: Yeah. I got up and played with them last night.
KNAC.COM: WHAT!?
JOURGENSEN: Yeah… on the tenth song…
KNAC.COM: Oh, fuck! I can’t believe… I had to bail about halfway through to get up early this morning…
JOURGENSEN: [Laughs] Oh, no! I did “Tin Omen,” a song I wrote and produced for them. I’ve been friends with Ogre for 20 years. He’s been in Revolting Cocks… I got there and they had to re-teach me the songs it had been so long since I played it… it was fun. Lotta fun! Sorry you missed it.
KNAC.COM: You and me both. Well, for what I saw, it was a helluva show.
JOURGENSEN: The kids went nuts. I felt like Reagan, or Clinton… the grand old man of the Goth party. The Grandpa… [Laughs] It was a lot of fun last night. And we’re supposed to be touring with them in October… we hope!
KNAC.COM: Dammit. I can’t believe it. I fucking should have stayed. I was so burned out all week running around… well, hell! I forgot what I was saying… something about industrial and rock…
JOURGENSEN: [Laughs]
KNAC.COM: Well, let’s start there: you, almost single-handedly, and certainly in a lot of people’s minds, forged a sound that has been completely lifted by the crop of current bands. Certainly a lot of bands look to you, or cite Ministry as an influence. And, one way or another, Ministry has irrevocably changed rock music in this country.
JOURGENSEN: For better or worse… it’s been especially invigorating these last… these past few years, these fossils and their fossil-fuel greed just gets my hackles up. And it’s invigorating. It’s almost easy to do a record. Now, when Kerry gets in office, we’ll probably suck again. [Laughs]
KNAC.COM: I saw something about that somewhere…
JOURGENSEN: I actually didn’t say that, a journalist friend of mine from Alternative Press said that.
He said, “Man, you guys suck when there’s a Democrat in office, do we have to have Jeb Bush running before you guys make a decent record? What’s wrong with you guys?”
KNAC.COM: At AP? Was it Jason Pettigrew?
JOURGENSEN: Yeah, but he’s kind of right. At least a lot of people feel that this is our best record since, as you mentioned before, Psalms 69.
KNAC.COM: Well, there’s a lot going on with the new record. I hear a tiny bit of Killing Joke in there…
JOURGENSEN: Sure!
KNAC.COM: Without being trite, and I know you’ve played with some of these bands, but do you sometimes feel ripped off when you hear bands that were obviously influenced by you and Ministry, or any of your side-projects?
JOURGENSEN: I don’t… I mean – it’s pretty well documented, so, I think people know where it comes from. And that’s cool. There’s still, like, Britney Spears, you know? So… I don’t turn on the radio anyway. I listen to the greats and try to learn something from all of them -- from Hank Williams, Sr., to Buck Owens, to George Jones, to Charles Mingus to Miles Davis to Charlie Parker to John Coltrane to Kitty Wells to Patsy Cline… okay? To Zeppelin. Stones. Floyd. All the giants… and I hate to say it -- I don’t really know any of these new bands, and I think that’s what keeps Ministry as Ministry. Because I’ve learned something and have been influenced by all the greats. And I don’t copy them verbatim -- I can’t -- and it would be a futile gesture anyways… I just take a certain ambience from those that influence me and try to articulate it in my own way. A lot of what I have heard, from bands today, in what I have heard, is that they take things verbatim. It’s not creation: it’s re-creation. It’s funny, it’s like with all this… when I started out there was no equipment. And yet every band sounded different, with very little equipment. And now there’s all this equipment, all this stuff… and every band sounds the same.
KNAC.COM: When you’re talking about starting out, you mean--
JOURGENSEN: I’m talking 1918! [Laughs] But you see what I’m saying? There’s re-creation going on and not creation. And what you need to create -- to recreate -- is your environment and the world around you, but not to a point where it’s just a rehash. But put your own stamp on it. Everyone has influences: that’s great. You mentioned Killing Joke -- I loved that band. But I don’t think we sound like that band: we sound like Ministry. There’s a recreation going on there with creation…
KNAC.COM: I read somewhere once that you were a DJ before you started playing music…
JOURGENSEN: I had a lot of plumber jobs… [Laughs]
KNAC.COM: …so it’s safe to say that you were a music fan. How much of that--
JOURGENSEN: Sure, sure. But you know what I enjoy even more? I’m an author-groupie! I enjoy reading much more than listening to music. I enjoy… outside of the political books lately, science-fiction… biographies. Reading… it’s not just self-serviced pablum thrown at you, like through the tube. I mean, there’s quality stuff out there in any medium, you just have to look for it. Nobody wants to delve any deeper though… like with television. Seven, eight-hundred channels and it’s so mediocre. And maybe you can find one thing to watch piques any kind of interest or gives you any kind of knowledge. Or fun.
KNAC.COM: No fun?
JOURGENSEN: Well… Simpsons, [The Dave] Chapelle [Show]… but with books… they’re so much more personal.
They’re not just trying to reach a mass-audience to sell something: they’re trying to articulate things that are bubbling through them, the authors, and maybe you can relate and say, “I can connect with this!”… it becomes more personal. Reading the fucking Tolkien books as opposed to watching them -- not that Peter Jackson didn’t do a superb job on a next to impossible take of recreating -- but to get into the mind of an author, what it takes to get from nothing to something, that impresses me so much more. Words, theories… and if you apply that notion to music… well, I don’t see a lot of that these days.
KNAC.COM: Who would you like to work with musically that you haven’t… since you’ve worked with so many people?
JOURGENSEN: Tom Waits. Neil Young. Both awesome… maybe on another project one day…
KNAC.COM: You’re doing another Revolting Cocks project…
JOURGENSEN: Yeah… and we’re putting it up online. And the first one’s free -- like being a heroin dealer! As we go along… it’ll be on ministrymusic.org. We’re trying to get a little culture over there; an exchange of information. The Internet can be so much more than just a home-shopping club, and we’re trying to utilize it that way.
KNAC.COM: Amen is doing that, too.
JOURGENSEN: That’s funny you mention them -- I have one of their stickers on my car. A lot of bands are doing that, of course, mostly unsigned. But, it’s a way to reach an audience.
Put it out there. It’s cool, isn’t it?
KNAC.COM: Invigorating. [Pauses] Let’s see what else… you have the dude from Dragpipe in your band now…
JOURGENSEN: John Monte. Yes… he is a very special case! We’re all special-bus riders, on that little short bus -- it’s great!
KNAC.COM: Any final thoughts about the record and upcoming tour?
JOURGENSEN: The new record is Houses of the Mole – that’s mo-lay -- after the Mexican brown sauce that my band loves so much… but we’ll be out on tour this fall! Buy our T-shirts! [Laughs] Anyway… come see us on tour… AND…
KNAC.COM: And?
JOURGENSEN: Register to vote! Vote for someone… just vote! Obviously you know where I stand…
